Meet The Pro: Jongman

Join host Toby Jermyn in this captivating episode of the Pangolin Podcast as he chats with Jongman, a renowned wildlife photographer from Botswana. Discover how Jongman transitioned from architecture to photography, his creative process, and the unique challenges he faces in the field.

Here is a link to a gallery of Jongman's images: https://pangolin.smugmug.com/SmugMug-Website/Website-Pages/Meet-the-Pro-Jongman

In this episode, Jongman shares his top four favourite images, the stories behind them, and an inspiring photo taken by a photographer he admires. Whether you're a seasoned photographer or just a nature enthusiast, this episode offers valuable insights and inspiration. Don't forget to subscribe and visit the link in the description for more wildlife photography content!

Connect with Jongman
www.pangolinphoto.com/thatayaone-jongman
www.instagram.com/the_roadtripperbw

Guest image by William Steel
https://www.williamsteelphotography.com/
www.instagram.com/williamsteelphotography

The Pangolin Podcast was produced and edited by Bella Falk: https://www.passportandpixels.com

Pangolin Photo Safaris
Africa's premier photo safari operator and lodge owner.

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We are Pangolin Wildlife Photography, based in the Chobe, Northern Botswana. When we are not making videos for our channel, we host our guests and clients from all over the world on our Wildlife Photography safaris throughout Botswana and the rest of Africa—and sometimes beyond!

Learn More about our safaris here: https://link.pangolinphoto.com/BZ-Safaris

Chapters

• 3:19 1st Image: Jacana Chick On A Lily Pad
• 11:00 2nd Image: Two baboons Caught In Silhouette
• 16:44 3rd Image: Blacksmith Lapwing Chick
• 20:59 4th Image: Fish Eagle
• 28:37 Inspirational Image: William Steel

Transcript

Toby: Hello, and welcome to another brand new episode of the Pangolin Podcast. I'm your host, Toby Jermyn. Thank you very much for joining me.

In each episode, I've invited a professional wildlife photographer to imagine themselves in a remote location, and along with their camera gear, they're allowed to bring five photographs to hang on the wall of their humble dwelling.

Now, four of these must be their own, and the final image is one they admire by another photographer. If you're watching this on YouTube, you can see the images as we talk. But for audio listeners on other platforms, there is a link to a gallery in the description.

On today's show.

Jongman: I didn't have this in mind when I jumped ship. I didn't know I would be doing this. I didn't know I would be handling guests on a daily basis. But, the fact that we get to meet them, and we share these ideas with them. We share these, photographic opportunities with them, and we want these lessons to stay with them for a lifetime.

Toby: My guest today may be a familiar face to those of you who've been with us in the Chobe. He was born and raised in a small village in Botswana, and then trained as an architect, working in the capital, Gaborone, for 16 years, designing houses all over the country. However, the call of wildlife photography became too strong, and he joined Pangolin as an understudy to the Photo Host that you will know from the channel around five years ago.

Roll forward to today, and he's now a fully fledged Pangolin Photo Host, guiding our clients throughout Botswana. Now, like other celebrities, including Prince and Sting, he only needs one name. It is, of course, Jongman.

Jongman, welcome to the show.

Jongman: Thank you. Thank you, Toby. Thank you for having me.

Toby: It's an absolute joy. What a pleasure to have you on the show. I don't need to ask where you are because I know exactly where you are.

Do you want to tell the viewers where you are if they don't know?

Jongman: Pangolin Chobe Hotel here in Botswana.

Toby: And you're in the studio? In the YouTube studio. Excellent. How's the weather up there? And we're recording this in November, which is traditionally the warmest time of the year. How's the weather treating you up in Botswana at the moment?

Jongman: The weather is quite good. We had a bit of rain here and there, but it's slightly warmer now. 

Toby: Excellent. Okay. So what we've invited you to do is come and share four of your images that you took yourself and then one by somebody else who you admire, which we'll keep as a secret towards the end. So how difficult was it?

I mean, you've got a really large and growing portfolio of images. How easy or difficult was it to choose these four images?

Jongman: It was really tough. You got a number or quite a lot of images and just trying to pick four out of the many, many images that one has, that's quite a task.

Toby: it is a very, I think everybody has been struggling a little bit. As we mentioned before, you're based up in the Chobe, so a lot of the images are from the Chobe, which is we think is one of the best photographic destinations in Africa.

So we would expect to see quite a few Chobe images. Tell you what, let's start with your first image, shall we? This is an amazing photograph, by the way. I love this photograph. So tell everybody, what's this photograph all about?

Jongman: So this photograph is a baby Jacana. He was head down in the water next to a lily pad, and if you look closely, there's a fly sitting next to him facing towards you, same as the Jacana is facing towards you as well. He's perched at the edge of the same leaf.

Toby: For those of you who don't know, Jacana is a wader. It's a very photogenic wader. One of our favourite things to photograph. So tell me about this photograph. This is quite unusual behaviour for a bird, 'cause don't forget this bird doesn't swim, does it? It doesn't have webbed feet.

So tell me what's going on here.

Jongman: When we were cruising past, I think he took note of us, and he tried to hide. That is first instinct for the baby Jacana. When they see danger, they tend to try to hide so that whatever danger is, it doesn't notice them, so he was hiding.

Toby: This behaviour is when they are separated from their father. 'Cause their father takes care of them. The mother is not involved in any of the parenting, is she? It's just the father.

Jongman: No, it's just the father.

Toby: And am I correct in assuming you've overexposed this image?

Jongman: Yes. 

Toby: What's the reasoning behind that?

Jongman: I've overexposed because I had bright background, that was the water. Overexposing allowed me to bring out the details on both the subjects. 

Toby: The Jacana and the fly and also the water lily, I suppose, as well.

Jongman: Yes.

Toby: It's such a cool thing to do, especially on water, because it flattens out the water, takes out the detail in the water as well. And then it looks more like a painting. 'Cause it's on a white canvas. I love high-key. I think it makes for really good prints as well. When you print something like this, it's really good. It doesn't use up all your black ink when you're trying to print something. It's very good. Save ink. Go high-key. This is the secret. This is what we're going to do.

And as you'll see in this podcast, Jongman has the best laugh. So you're going to enjoy this one. You can't argue. It sets me off all the time. Jongman, the question I have for you is, when you took the photograph, did you see the fly, or did you only see it when you looked afterwards? Was it there the whole time, or did you see it in post-production?

Jongman: I must admit, I saw it in post.

Toby: It's often the case, isn't it? Because it's these little things. It's a great photograph without it, but there's something really special about the fact that the fly is sitting there as well. And they're both watching you. I love it. So in situations like this, when you are on the photo boat, you've got this subject there.

Obviously, you have to have a camera in your hands because you've got to look for compositional ideas. But part of your training is to be able to vocalise your thought process as you're also looking through the viewfinder of your camera to help your guests take the photographs.

So in a situation like this, what are you saying to the guests? How do you tell them what you're envisioning?

Jongman: With this particular image, my thought process is the first one: go low. Going low gets you that eye-to-eye perspective with your subjects a little bit more intimate. So that's the first advice. And then I suggested 1/2500, and I was f/8. And this was too ready for any type of particular action. But then the scene refused to move. He just stood still, waiting, and we were waiting, the bug was waiting. And it's a case of whoever moves dies because the bug thinks the Jacana is going to eat him. The Jacana thinks I'm going to eat him. So everybody's waiting. And we managed to get this particular shot when we are still in the waiting process.

Toby: Okay. Let's talk a little bit about your journey in wildlife photography. I mentioned in the intro that you studied architecture.

Jongman: Yes, I did study architecture, and from there I practised for 16 years.

Toby: That's extraordinary. And then what made you think I need to move from architecture to this crazy world of tourism?

Jongman: So like I said, I was in architecture and in the last years I moved on into construction. I had photography as a hobby on the side. I got myself a Canon 1200D, that's a entry-level. So everywhere I went, I used to carry it around. And this one time a friend of mine invited me to go camping. We did Elephant Sands, we did Nxai, and we did Xakanaxa in the Delta. So I think a turning moment came when we were in Nxai, where we went to this waterhole that was nearby, and at the waterhole we saw a kudu in the water.

So he was standing still in the water, and we figured that was not a usual scene. So we looked around, and then we saw a lion in the background there, and the lion came and pounced on the kudu, and I got all those shots in camera. So then I think that turned the light switch on, and said, you know, I think I want to be along on this path. But how do I do it when I'm in architecture, when I'm in construction?

Fortunately, that came also at a time where that was around COVID, where the market was slowly closing down, and there weren't many jobs. And I decided that at some point, I think I want to work in an area where I have easy access to wildlife. So my prospects were Maun, and the other location was Kasane. 'Cause I could work during the week, and maybe over the weekend, I could go into the park and snap some shots. So I started dishing out my CV in the construction arena. But then there wasn't none. And then I sat down and said, you know what, what's the next best thing next to construction?

And that was maintenance. And then I applied to lodges and said I'm looking for a maintenance position. And one of them landed here. And Pangolin said, you know what we don't have anything for you with regards to maintenance, but we see you have photography as a hobby. How would you like to take it up? And I said, why not? Where do I sign?

Toby: There we go. What a journey. That's I mean, it fills me with absolute joy that your life, you know, lots of people talk about COVID as being this sort of horrible, horrible time, but it did make us change a little bit. And had it not been COVID, you probably wouldn't have taken the step to come to Kasane, and to come and hand in your CV, thinking I want to do some maintenance. And instead, now you are a
professional wildlife photographer. You must pinch yourself sometimes, and go, 'Wow.' There you go. There we go.

The dream. It just goes to show. And I'm so glad that we have you as part of the team. I love getting feedback from the clients on your trips. 'Cause they always say they have the best fun ever. There's so much laughter, and they learn so much from you as well. Tell you what, whilst we're on that note, let's move on to your second photograph then, would you quickly describe this one for me, please?

Jongman: Alright, those are two baby baboons playing on the branches there. One is upside down, and then the other one is mid-swing, and it's a silhouette.

Toby: Very nice. Now, when you first see this image, it takes you a moment to adjust. Traditionally, everyone says, oh, you've got to watch out for all these branches. You need it to be clear as well. Tell me about how you decided to frame it like this.

Jongman: I decided to frame it like this because the branches and the twigs that were in the way they formed what you call a natural frame. And especially here in the Chobe, where you get sometimes animals in the bush, and the bush, it's not always pleasing to look at, but you can actually frame your subjects using that.

Toby: So rather than using it as a, oh, there's a tree in the way, you figure out how can I use that to my advantage? I think that this is, it's really nice because whenever you frame something like this, it creates a sense of intimacy.

It looks like you are looking in on a secret event going on.

Jongman: Yes. It's like you're looking out through a window onto an animal's world.

Toby: Absolutely. Lovely way to put it. And your choice to make it black and white.

Jongman: The background was bright, and all these bushes made a little bit of a dark frame, and I thought that could make an interesting silhouette picture.

Toby: Brilliant. I just want to touch back on base about, you know, you learning from the Pangolin Photo Host. Tell me about your first day as an understudy to the Pangolin Photo Hosts. What was going through your mind?

Jongman: I am trying to recall about my first day. 

Toby: Such a long time ago.

Jongman: It's many, many days away from now. But, I think my thoughts at the moment were I want to do this, and I'm going to give it my best, and if I win at this, then I'll be best. If I don't win at this, at least I would have levelled up on my skills.

Toby: And you have. I mean, if I look at the photographs that you took when you first started, to the amazing photographs that you take now. You must be incredibly proud of yourself. Do you look back sometimes and say did I take this?

Who's is this?

Jongman: In fact, sometimes I do. And just as a moment of reflection to gauge myself and see how much I've grown and what the potential is in terms of growing further to say, can I still develop here? Can I still grow myself in this arena? And I see that yes, I can.

Toby: Excellent. And you arrived to us from the world of architecture, which is a huge pivot in your career, but this is where I think you stand out is because you already arrived with that creative mindset. You understand form, composition, the way, what looks good and what doesn't.

So do you think that was an advantage? And were you always artistic or did you develop those artistic skills doing architecture?

Jongman: I think that was an advantage. And I was always artistic. I mean, I come from an artistic family. My family's musical and music is part of art, and I think those skills grew up in me.

Toby: Oh, there we go. So you are off to an unfair advantage already because you can understand the artistic side. Excellent. And you mentioned earlier on that you started your photographic journey with a Canon 1200D. What are you taking out when you go out with clients at the moment?

Jongman: My camera at the moment is a Canon R6 Mark II with a 100-500 mm lens. Plus we also got other gear in the hotel that we get to use.

Toby: You can call it. You can call it; we keep all our camera gear in the cage. I know you wanted to say the cage.

Jongman: You got me there. 

Toby: I think it does sound a bit sinister that we keep all our gear in the cage, but that's where we keep it. That's where it stays safe. But we do have lots of other gear. We don't just have Canon gear, do we? We have lots of gear from other brands, and so you practice on the other gear as well.

Jongman: It's important to do that because you need to appreciate how each brand has all its functions, or whatever menu systems they have. We cater for people across the spectrum. It doesn't matter what gear or what brand you're using; we can be able to help you out when you get here.

Toby: And do you find it difficult to move between the different brands and the menu settings? Is it now becoming like second nature? I mean, that must be difficult 'cause it's like learning different languages.

Jongman: It is like learning different language. Sometimes you get caught in between and speak the wrong language to the wrong people. But, of course, if you are familiar with the interfaces. Sometimes it's just to blink and sync yourself with the current model that you're using, and you can work it out.

Toby: It is difficult. I just recently bought a small Fuji camera to go on holiday. 'Cause I'm going to be doing more sort of little street photography and stuff like that. And looking at the menu, it makes zero sense to me. I've got to relearn it. So I have new respect for you, learning all the different brands. Well done because I struggle. Struggle or you get used to it.

Okay. Brilliant. Listen, we are gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, we are going to talk about Jongman's third image. We'll see you in a minute.

Welcome back to the Pangolin Podcast with my guest today, Pangolin Photo Host, Jongman. So, Jongman. We are now onto your third image that you've chosen for the podcast. Can you please describe this image to us and tell us what's going on?

Jongman: So in this particular image we have a baby Blacksmith lapwing. He's walking across the plane and just above him is a butterfly. I think this is a monarch butterfly.

Toby: So why did you choose this image in particular? What is it that speaks
to you about this image?

Jongman: The fact that you have both the Blacksmith lapwing and the butterfly in focus. But that was just for a brief moment. And in this way, it reminds me of life, of how some people we meet briefly, and their presence or their lessons stay with us for a lifetime.

Toby: That's lovely. When you talk about they were fleeting. So the butterflies flying over, but they're both very small subjects, aren't they? And was there a risk that one would be outside the focal plane, because this looks like you've got quite a wide aperture? You've got a nice blurry background.

Jongman: Yes, they are both moving, and like I said, it is just for a fraction of a moment where they actually fall in line. So that's when that picture was actually taken.

Toby: This could also be a metaphor for your role as a Photo Host, couldn't it? Because you meet so many people and they're from all parts of the world, and you love laughing, you love having fun, and so you should. But has this been? Was this what you expected? These experiences from clients all around the world must be extraordinary.

Jongman: Extraordinary and amazing. I mean, I didn't have this in mind when I jumped ship. I didn't know I would be doing this. I didn't know I would be handling guests on a daily basis. But the fact that we get to meet them, and we share these ideas with them. We share these photographic opportunities with them, and we want these lessons to stay with them for a lifetime.

Toby: Very lovely. I approve of this image. It's an excellent, lovely, it's a lovely story. Very good. Now, this is a Blacksmith lapwing, formally Blacksmith plover.

Do you know why it's called a Blacksmith plover?

Jongman: I have no idea. No.

Toby: Oh, good. I get to teach you something. You know, when you hear it, when you hear it calling, it makes a sound like a ding-d-d-ding-ding. Like this, which is supposed to be the sound of a hammer hitting an anvil.

Jongman: Ah, wow.

Toby: There you go. You've got a whole new story for your clients now.

Jongman: I know now what I'm saying to the next client.

Toby: There we go. You're going to go tell them tomorrow. Brilliant. Okie dokie. And obviously, you weren't lying flat on the ground. This was taken from the boat?

Jongman: Yes, the boats we have low-sized that really enable us to get really low and that is how I achieved this.

Toby: And you prefer the boat, or do you prefer the game drives? I'm asking all the difficult questions now. For those of you who don't really know, Pangolin Photo Safaris, obviously, we chose to operate in the Chobe because you can do both boat activities and game drives. It's very unique to be able to offer both. So the question we get often asked is, what's better, a game drive? Or is it better to be on a boat? Jongman, do you have the perfect answer to this question?

Jongman: I think both. I think both. The boat – you get those low angles, which are very, very nice. And with a game drive, you get to be a little bit more close to your cats, which don't come down to the river much.

Toby: So there we go. That's the most diplomatic answer, Jongman. Well done. Nice low angles, but then you can see big cats. So we tend to vary it between
boats and game drives, depending on what's going on. If we're having really good big cat sightings, we'll do game drives. If we've got amazing other sightings from the river, then we'll go back on the river. There's lots of flexibility. Okay, so I think it's time that we move onto your fourth image, please.

Jongman: This is a silhouette of the apex of the Chobe skies. The mighty Fish Eagle.

Toby: The apex predator, the fish Eagle, Yeah. Okay. What, how are you getting
a photograph at night? We don't do night drives in the Chobe. How did this happen?

Jongman: All right, so this is a silhouette. We have the sun behind the Fish Eagle's head. So this was taken in the evening, just when the sun was just about to drop and we had this Fish Eagle perched against the sunlight there in open background. So that enabled us to move the boat and angle the Fish Eagle with his head directly behind the sun.

Toby: Amazing. I was absolutely convinced that was the moon. So this is incredibly creative. I love this. I've not seen this image before. This is really cool. So you talk us through this. The sun is setting, it's super bright. What are you doing? What is your thought process? What are you telling the clients to do as well?

Jongman: So the thought process in this case is you want to cut down as much light as you can through all the different parameters. That is through your ISO, through your f-stop and through your shutter speed. And as such, I was at 1/8000,  which is the maximum for my R6 Mark II, and I was at f/45.

Toby: Wow.

Jongman: The result was ISO. Because I am on manual with auto ISO, my ISO dropped down to 400. 

Toby: So, it's not grainy because then I presume you don't want grain. So you've got to figure out a way to keep the ISO as low as possible.

Jongman: Yes.

Toby: How difficult do you find it to convince somebody on safari to push their settings to the extreme? Do you get resistance from that when you say to someone, we are going plus three on exposure compensation.

Jongman: A natural reaction would be did you say f/45? So most people are actually shocked when you try to pull up something like this, and only after they try to do it, that's when they really appreciate what the motive was.

But sometimes you get people that don't really do it, and maybe they look at your pictures now, later when you are in the editing room, and you're talking to the other guests and say, this is what I wanted us to be doing. And they say, ah, I wish I took that. And they say, can you please change to boat later this afternoon? I would like to try it again.

Toby: They just need the same subject, the same light, the same everything to repeat it. But do you find then that you've kind of won their confidence because, you know, you are trying to ask somebody to do something which is so beyond what they've been taught, or they learn themselves.

Jongman: Sometimes when people come with the level of knowledge, and they try to pursue the same type of photos, it's quite difficult to convince them otherwise. But when you finally show them, and they say, ah, I want to try that as well, you know, you've won them over.

Toby: Brilliant. 'Cause it's sort of going back to your architecture as well. I mean, architecture is the perfect balance between form and function, isn't it? Which I think is also a little bit like photography, where you've got form, you've got to understand what makes a photograph, and then you've got to understand what makes a photograph look good. Would you say that your experience coming from architecture helped you? Do you ever find yourself thinking back to the architectural skills that you learned before, and going, okay, this seems familiar with my photography.

Jongman: I think like you've just explained it, with architecture, it is more about understanding the functionality of the structure that you want to design and also coming up with good looking in terms of aesthetics. So then you mesh the two. I think that relates with what we do here in photography, that you need to understand the mathematical value because there is mathematics in photography, and there is the creative bit. So you need to find a balance and measure the two, and you come up with a great picture.

Toby: Fascinating. I think. I've never thought of a correlation. But there is definitely a correlation between those two spheres. Very good. It's a really, really cool photograph. We have a lot of Fish Eagles in the Chobe. In fact, it's got one of the highest densities of Fish Eagles in most of Africa, I think. But, every photograph that we see of a Fish Eagle is usually on a stump or trying to catch a fish. I can quite safely say, Jongman, this is the most original Fish Eagle photograph I've ever seen. Thank you so much. It's brilliant. Firstly, it made me think, what are you doing? Why are you photographing Fish Eagles at night?

It just goes to show how creative you can get when you understand how your camera works and what you can accomplish. And also a bit of post-production. You use Lightroom, don't you?

Jongman: Lightroom. Yes. That's what I used to edit my photos.

Toby: And then you just convert to black and white, increase the blacks, and there you go. A really original photograph. And why did you pick this image in particular? What meaning does it have for you?

Jongman: You see, moments like this remind me that photography isn't always about what you see. For somebody, someone might have said that Fish Eagle is against the sun. I don't need that. But if you start to think outside the box, you get to envision pictures like this. 

Toby: And it's inspirational. I'm going to start thinking about these things now because it could have been pulled out a little bit further. Maybe you've got more of the Fish Eagle or something. But the fact that the head fit perfectly in the circle of what I thought was the moon, but isn't. Very nice. Very cool. And along with Fish Eagles, I mean everyone loves, loves to photograph Fish Eagles 'cause they're also cool photographic subjects.

What are your other favourite subjects in the Chobe that you like to photograph?

Jongman: Are we talking birds, or all things in general?

Toby: Give us your. Let's do both. What's your favourite bird to photograph?

Jongman: I think it's the Malachite. Malachite Kingfisher.

Toby: Cool.

Jongman: You want to know why?

Toby: Yes. Tell me.

Jongman: He is small like me.

Toby: Right.

Jongman: He is fast like me, and he is beautiful like me.

Toby: Oh, I see. Oh, okay. Jongman.

Jongman: That's why I like him.

Toby: That's why you like him, because you see so much of yourself in him as well. And he is almost impossible to photograph 'cause he is too fast.

Jongman: Like me.

Toby: Like you. There you go. Okay, so your favourite bird is done. Okay. What about your favourite mammal?

Jongman: I think my favourite mammal will be the Leopard. Because he's quite elusive. You would not see him quite often. So the fact that you have to really look
and look hard for him and be able to get that particular shot, it builds up some adrenaline, some momentum. And when you finally get that shot, you feel proud about it.

Toby: Excellent. Let's take a break, and then when we come back, we are going to reveal the image that was taken by another photographer that you admire, that you wish you'd taken yourself. So we'll see you in a second.

Welcome back to the final part of the Pangolin Podcast with me, Toby Jermyn and my guest today, Pangolin Photo Host, Jongman. So Jongman, we've asked you to choose an image by another photographer who you admire, an image, maybe you wish you'd taken yourself. So, will you tell us about this image, please, and who took the image?

Jongman: This is a picture by William Steel, who is a friend, and a colleague, and one of the four mentors who shaped the way I look at photography. This is a snail. He is crawling up a wall, and behind him, there are some city lights. And they form these beautiful bokeh balls behind him, and that makes him turn up as a silhouette.

Toby: Now, the diplomatic question we're gonna have to ask you is, you obviously work with lots of Pangolin Photo Hosts. So there's William, there's Charl, there's Sabine, there's Guts, there's Janine, there's all these people. Were you a bit worried about choosing one over the other? Do you think the others are going to forgive you? I know you had to choose one.

Jongman: There's no forgiveness.

Toby: No forgiveness. Okay. Then you've got to back this up now. You've got to tell us why you chose Williams' image above all other photographs by all other Photo Hosts.

Jongman: First of all, the fact that this is a snail, and we all know snails, they move, you know, the English saying you're moving at a snail's pace. They move very, very slow and nothing bothers them about how fast they're moving. So, with this particular image, I thought of photography and said, you know, photography is about patience. Sometimes you wait the whole day for that one particular image, depending on your light or readiness of your subject. It might be the whole day. It might be maybe an hour or a second. But photography is really about patience and the fact that this guy was taking his time, going to where he was, and I can imagine the amount of patience William had to endure because you got those bokeh balls. They are there, but you can't really move them. You have to wait for the snail to move to the position so that you can be able to take that picture. So patience isn't passive, it's part of the process.

Toby: Okay. That's it. I think you've got away with that one. I think you'll be forgiven by the others. It's more about the story that it tells you. Okay. I think we're, I think we're good. I think you're going to be fine. I love it when somebody takes an image or a subject, which is so not what you would go after as a wildlife photographer.

William does this a lot with small silhouettes of birds. He does this with silhouettes of like the snails and things like that. And just becoming creative. This sort of image says to me that anything can be interesting.

Take interesting photographs of boring subjects. Rather boring photographs of interesting subjects. Talking about the Photo Hosts, are there any, you know, lessons that really stuck with you, that one of them shared with you? Have you got a moment where one of them said to you, 'Hey, Jongman,' and you've gone, oh, lightning bolt moment.

Jongman: I think answer to that question would be like saying, think outside the box, say for example, when you're coming here in Chobe, sometimes you get a quiet afternoon, like similar to what we had this morning. We had a quiet morning. But you can actually make good photographs out of ordinary subjects.

For example, this morning we took photographs of a skink. A skink.

Toby: A skink, which is a lizard. It's a lizard, isn't it?

Jongman: Yes, it's a lizard. 

Toby: So. And what were you doing with the skink? I've never photographed a skink, I don't think.

Jongman: Exactly. We were thinking outside the box. 

Toby: There you go. You got to, you got to work with it. Okay, so what was the skink? What was the skink doing?

Jongman: We had the skink on a log, and we had a dark patch around him, so we managed to move the vehicle and got low-key shots of the skink.

Toby: Awesome. So that's the thing about being creative is if you understand these different skills and techniques, high-key, low-key, motion blur, you can pretty much make anything interesting by just being more creative. Okay. When it's a little bit quiet out there, and you do have quiet days on safari.

It can't all be lions and leopards bouncing around everywhere all day long. You still, you're not going to not photograph and sit there in a sulk, are you? You've got to work with what nature provides. 

Jongman: Yes.

Toby: There we go. We'll make a YouTube video of how to photograph skinks. It'll be very, very niche.

Jongman: It's going to be.

Toby: But who knows? There's lots of people who live in areas where they have far more lizards than they have lions. So maybe it will inspire people to go out there to the more deserty parts of their surroundings and photograph, you know, what about all those people who live in the deserts of America?

They've probably got a lot of lizard action going on there. They'll appreciate that one. So yeah, we'll make a skink photography video, Jongman, how about that?

Jongman: I think that's a good idea.

Toby: You like it? Brilliant. Okay, we'll do it. It's on. Okay, Jongman, thank you so much for being on the show, but we always have to ask the one question at the end of the show before we let everybody go. The premise of the podcast is that we imagine you're in a remote location and you're in your humble dwelling with these lovely images hanging there. You get to choose where that humble dwelling is going to be. So, where are you going to be photographing for the rest of time?

Jongman: I think for me it'll be the Okavango Delta.

Toby: Okay.

Jongman: 'Cause you have all these variety of subjects, and I think it's haven.

Toby: It's haven.

Jongman: It's haven.

Toby: Okay. I know you are going to be leading more trips down to the Okavango Delta soon and spending a lot more time down there as well. So I think that it's a very good choice. Lots of things to photograph in the Okavango. Not the Chobe? I suppose you already live in the Chobe. You got to choose somewhere else.

Jongman, thank you so much for being on the show. It fills me with so much pride and joy to see your development at Pangolin Photo Safaris from where you were when you first came in and dropped off your CV to where you are today. Long may it continue. We are so delighted to have you as part of the team. Your infectious enthusiasm for everything is, as I said, infectious. So keep it up. Don't stop being young. Don't stop laughing. Brilliant.

Jongman: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Toby: Thank you, Jongman. I'll see you soon. Cheers.

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Pangolin Podcast. We hope you have enjoyed it. As always, we'd love to hear your comments and feedback, so please leave them down below and give us the thumbs up whilst you're there,if you don't want to miss the next episode or any of our other wildlife photography videos, please make sure you subscribe to the channel.

Finally, don't forget to sign up to the Pangolin Photo Safari's Friday Focus newsletter. You can do that by heading over to pangolinphoto.com, or you can scan the QR code on your screen now. I look forward to seeing you on a Pangolin
Photo Safari soon, and all that's left for me to do is to say that the Pangolin Podcast was hosted by me, Toby Jermyn, and produced and edited by Bella Falk.

Thank you.