Meet The Pro: Margot Raggett

Join host Toby Jermyn for episode nine of the Pangolin Podcast featuring distinguished British wildlife photographer and conservationist Margot Raggett. 

Visit the Remembering wildlife site: https://rememberingwildlife.com/

Here is a link to a gallery of Margot's images: https://pangolin.smugmug.com/SmugMug-Website/Website-Pages/Meet-the-Pro-Margot-Raggett

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Known for her founding role in the Remembering Wildlife Book series, Margot discusses her journey from public relations to wildlife conservation, inspired by a pivotal elephant poaching incident in 2014. 

In celebration of the series’ 10th edition, the conversation highlights her efforts to bring together top photographers and raises over £1 million for conservation projects. Discover four stunning images from the series, and learn about the impact of these photographs on raising awareness and funds for endangered species.

Margot also shares one of her favourite personal photographs and announces the location of her humble dwelling. Don’t miss this inspiring episode filled with passion, purpose, and breathtaking wildlife photography. Subscribe for more episodes and wildlife photography content.

Photographer Images:
1st: Elephants by Chris Packham
https://www.chrispackham.co.uk/

2nd: Polar bear by Marsel van Oosten
https://www.squiver.com/

3rd: Leopard by Paolo Torchio
https://paolotorchio.net/

4th: Ground Pangolin by Tristan Dicks
https://wanderingthru.com/

5th: Margot Raggett's Leopard
https://margotraggettphotography.com/

If you are interested in joining us on safari, then click here: https://link.pangolinphoto.com/YTsafari 

The Pangolin Podcast was produced and edited by Bella Falk: https://www.passportandpixels.com

The Pangolin Podcast was produced and edited by Bella Falk: https://www.passportandpixels.com

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Chapters

• 5:22 1st Photographer: Elephants by Chris Packham
• 13:09 2nd Photographer: Polar bear by Marsel van Oosten
• 17:49 3rd Photographer: Leopard by Paolo Torchio
• 24:35 4th Photographer: Ground Pangolin by Tristan Dicks
• 28:53 5th Image: Margot’s leopard

Transcript

Toby: Hello and welcome to episode nine of the Pangolin Podcast. I'm your host, Toby Jermyn. Thank you very much for joining me. 

​Toby: In each episode, I've invited a professional wildlife photographer to imagine themselves in a remote location, and along with their camera gear, they're allowed to bring five photographs to hang on the wall of their humble dwelling. Four of these must be their own, and the final image is one they admire by another photographer.

If you're watching this on YouTube, you can see the images as we talk. But for audio listeners on other platforms, there's a link in the description below. On today's show. 

Margot: My heart was racing and I was kind of trying to take the picture and, I was thinking, my goodness, this is such a rare moment. I need to make sure haven't messed it up. And so I was stealing precious seconds to check back on what I'd taken and then suddenly I kind of blinked and thought why am I seeing. Double here.  ​

Toby: My guest today is a distinguished [00:01:00] British wildlife photographer, conservationist, and the founder of the Remembering Wildlife Book series, which brings together top photographers to raise awareness and crucial funds for endangered species around the world. Her transition from a successful career in public relations. Was inspired by a deep passion for conservation, sparked by a pivotal encounter with an elephant poaching incident in 2014. Through remembering wildlife. She has united hundreds of photographers and helped raise over a million pounds for conservation projects. Earning her an MBE to boot. Welcome to the show, Margot Raggett.

Margot: Hi Toby. Thank you for agreeing to have me on the show. I'm really happy to be here.

Toby: It's an absolute pleasure having you here and, as this is going out today, it is rather a momentous occasion because in the last couple of days you will have published the 10th anniversary, or the 10th edition is the 10th anniversary or 10th edition.

Margot: Well, it's kind of both. So it's the 10th book I actually started in 2014 with the, the poached elephant that I [00:02:00] saw. 2015 we announced the first book would be coming called Remembering Elephants. That came out 2016, but since then, it's been a book a year. So this is the 10th book in the series, which I can't really believe.

Toby: It's quite extraordinary, isn't it? What a commitment to it as well. I mean, I, I know from your workload. As soon as you finish a book, there's barely time to catch your breath, and then, and then you're onto the next one.

Margot: Absolutely. It's, a treadmill that I have to sprint to try and keep up with, and every year I say, I'm not gonna do another one. I'm too tired. And then I, I have never had children, but I believe it's a bit like, you know, when you've actually given birth, you've got a lovely baby in your arms, and you think, oh, that's quite nice, and, and then you're happy to

Toby: And you forget all the pain and you think to yourself, I'm gonna do this again. Well, congratulations on making it to, 10 editions in 10 years. It is a remarkable achievement. And you were awarded an MBE. That's a, for all of those who don't know, this is recognition from. From the establishment, a member of the British Empire, 

Margot: yes, indeed. [00:03:00] Yeah, no, that was a, a really lovely, moment in recognition. I got to go to Windsor Castle and Princess Anne, pinned the badge on me, and, and we had a bit of a chat about, um, what we were doing and she was really encouraging . So, yeah. It was special you,

Toby: So there we go. From the hardest working royal, I think that seems fitting that you received it from her. That's amazing. So what we're gonna do, um, in today's episode in celebration of the 10th anniversary is we are kind of flipping this a little bit where the first four images are going to be from the series and the last image is going to be from you. So normally we ask person who's on the episode to present four of their images, but we thought Margot has got. A trove of images, and now you've had to go and find four images that sort of really stand out for you or have big meaning from all of the images you've seen. How difficult was this task?

Margot: Oh, virtually impossible. But even say this 10 year book, I know we'll come on to talk about this, but it, has a focus on pangolins, but we've taken the opportunity to kind of choose the best of the best [00:04:00] from the last nine books as well. So I've had to narrow down with my team from kind of 90 pictures per book to. 10 already. So then to take, you know, just four from that selection has, has been tough. But you'll see these images are truly beautiful and, and if I'm stuck on my island or wherever it is, and these are on my wall, I'll be happy to look at them.

Toby: Brilliant. I, I remember actually at a launch event in Cape Town putting my hand up when somebody said, are there gonna be any questions? I said, when are you doing remembering Pangolin? So, I dunno if you remember that, but I thought it, it's a bit of, a difficult one because there are that many Pangolin images around. So that was the decision behind this one. Was it?

Margot: exactly. Well, there's two things. One, I need to sell books in order to raise money for conservation. So it's much easier to put a a book with a picture of a lion on the cover, say on Amazon. And the general public will want to buy it because. Everyone's heard of a lion. There are so many people who've never even heard of Pangolins. But I was really compelled that a book [00:05:00] on Pangolins was necessary. So I wanted to make one, but I figured if I could. One, have a retrospective of some of the other images in there. It would broaden its appeal, put it that way. And two, it would help us overcome the fact that actually wild Pangolin images are very few and far between, so hopefully this, this has got something for everyone and by stealth makes 'em learn about Pangolins as well.

Toby: Good, good bit of stealth. Okay. I'm sure we're going to chat more about the 10th Edition and Pangolins in particular later on in the show. But let's start with the first image that you have chosen for this episode tell us what's going on in this image and why you chose.

Margot: Okay, so this is an absolutely stunning image of elephants at sunset by a watering hole with a beautiful reflection and perfect separation between them all. It's by Chris Packham, who's better known as, a wildlife presenter in the uk, but is also a fantastic photographer, as you can see. And all of my team, when we saw this image, when we were starting to put together that first [00:06:00] book on remembering elephants. Utterly fell in love with this. And we had an exhibition that year when we launched this. And I stared at this image for 10 days during the exhibition, framed up huge and large, and just thought, my god, I wish I could have that on my wall. So now, yes, in my fantasy world, I'm, I'm fulfilling that. And one thing I find really interesting about this, I had a whole debate on Facebook recently. A photographer from America had started playing around with AI about a year ago and talking about the possibilities of ai. And he had taken his own elephant shot, against a sunset, but it didn't have a reflection.

And he said, look what I've created in ai I've, created a kind of reflection. Isn't it great? Isn't AI gonna be a wonderful thing for us photographers? And it was a beautiful shot, and some people might want to put it on their wall. but My point back to him is that never happened. And what's so spectacular about this is just the perfection of the moment. And usually a moment like this happens and you are begging the elephant on the right to put its head [00:07:00] above and have some separation from the trees and it just doesn't happen, and you get a picture, that's okay. But the separation above those trees is. So spectacular. So I feel that, to have a fake world of AI images would, just be a tragedy because the real planet delivers moments like this for us sometimes.

Toby: Absolutely. And I think like you said, it's that you can sit looking, waiting for moments like this. So the fact that they've both turned sideways, both raised their trunks into what is, you know, the most elephantine pose you could possibly imagine is remarkable. And then it's completely still. normally this would happen and it would be lovely, but there'd be a slight ripple on the surface. Ruining it. So there's a lot that's gotta come together for this sort of image to work.

Margot: Yeah, no, it's just remarkable and obviously the theory of our books is to try and create the most beautiful. Book ever seen on that particular species by collecting the best work from the best photographers all in one place. [00:08:00] So, this just gives you a flavor of the quality of the images we were able to pull together for that first book. Remembering Elephants and Interestingly Remembering Elephants is still our second bestseller every year. So no matter what the new species is that we are bringing out. The next bestseller is always elephants. People love elephants.

Toby: So, so talk me through, you saw this, horrible moment that obviously drove you to, to wanting to get involved. But you've had this idea, you're sitting there going, I want to make a difference. What was the next step then, what really drove you? What motivated you?

Margot: Yeah, well, I suppose my background in PR where you are presented with a client brief, they have a problem that you want to try and solve. So you come up with an idea that's newsworthy that people will talk about, to try and solve the issue. So I'd had so much training over the years in that and, and I was woken up by hyenas at a, when we were staying at a camp in northern Kenya. When we went to investigate, we found an elephant that had been poached. And I was so angry and realized I [00:09:00] didn't understand, and I thought lots of people didn't, how bad the poaching crisis was. So it was really easy to stay in a camp somewhere in beautiful Africa and have your gin and tonic and watch the elephants wander by. And, and no one really tells you, the numbers that are being poached at. So once I knew the problem, I thought, well, I, have to. Tell people about this problem, but just telling them isn't enough. I need to help raise money for anti-poaching work to try and prevent, you know, another poaching incident like the one I was so upset by. So my PR brain clicked in and I thought, well, we could have an exhibition or a book and you know, people. Will talk about that, but no one's gonna buy a book of my images apart from my mom. Maybe, but I thought actually at this point, I know quite a lot of wildlife photographers, 'cause I'd been working in a camp in the Masai Mara, as a resident photographer, and you'd see the same faces. So you had the. As a podcast guest recently, Federico Esei. I used to see him a lot out there and, we met for breakfast and I said, I've got this idea and what I want is one image from every photographer. 'cause I think 50 together would be really interesting and [00:10:00] people would want to buy it. You know, are you willing to, to get involved? And he said, yes, absolutely. You know, whatever you want. And I wasn't quite sure people would say yes. So that was, that was a happy surprise. And then I spoke to Jonathan and Angela Scott, who have been great mentors to me over the years, and they said, yes. And, and once you start to have a few big names like that under your belt, you approach other people and say, you know, Federico's doing it. Johnny and Angie are doing it. We would you be up for it? And, and people will say, yes, of course. So. We gradually found 50, and at one point it flipped. Then people started contacting me saying, I hear you are doing this thing, and you know, I'm willing to give you pictures too. And, and so now we're in a kind of happy but challenging position that more people would love to be in the books and we could possibly fit in. So, I have to do a lot of kind of juggling to try and make it

Toby: This. That's the danger, isn't it? Because there's so much kudos to being in the book, obviously, that it's gone the other way. That must be a really tough job. You've got two, 300 photographers each submitting amazing images. How many, how many images do you have [00:11:00] approximately in each book

Margot: well this year's book is the biggest yet, so I think we've got about a hundred images, so it's somewhere between 80 and a hundred images, something like that. It is really, really tough. but what I try and do is step back and. Stay true to the premise, which is we want, really beautiful images and, if you think about our books, they're less about action and drama. We are not after kind of gory images. I always come back to, would it be a print you could put on your wall? Because also we are able to sell prints, the photographers let us, and then we raise more money that way. So that's what I'm looking for. And, so I, I have an editorial team and, and we have a full day of image selection where we're quite robust with each other. And if one says, oh, I like this one, or, you know, the other might say, well, I don't, and here's the reason why. And If photography's really subjective, I find down to the mood you are in almost the day you are choosing the images as well.

Toby: I think also you have to understand that there can be lots of images of a leopard or a lion, which are very similar, and you can't just do the same sort of image over and over again. [00:12:00] and, and that's why we always find, we've got several of the books at the hotel and we always find people flicking through them in between their activities. And they're an amazing source of inspiration because the images are always so different.

Margot: Yes. And, and that's another happy, consequence of the books I didn't set out to achieve. But definitely we try not to have too many very similar images. So, for example, we had. Thousands of beautiful images of leopards, lolling in trees. And there's only so many pictures of a leopard laying in a tree that you could look at. So people might get hurt because they think theirs is a beautiful picture but honestly, you know, if you've got hundreds, how do you choose one? And then it really gets subjected down to, you know, light and pose and glint in the eye. And there's very little margin to choose between them, and I, see a lot all the time, people are aspiring to get the image they've seen. Everyone else has got already like, I want my leopard laying in a tree. And I'd almost [00:13:00] encourage you, you know, once you've nailed that, think, well, what hasn't anyone got? Because that's what then stands out for us for our books.

Toby: Absolutely. We'll chat more about the books as well as we go along. So let's move on to your second image, which is very different to a leopard in a tree. Tell us about this image.

Margot: The photograph is by Marcel Van Uston, who's, one of the winners of wildlife photographer of the year. And it's a beautiful polar bear illuminated by a shaft of light in an ice cave. Marcel has been in since the beginning of the book series. He had a beautiful image. Of a, elephant on the top of Victoria Falls, which is an amazing image in that book. And then when we decided to. Do remembering bears, which covers all eight species of bears, including polar bears. Then he sent over this image, which is again, just remarkable. And the whole story of polar bears and the fact that, their habitat is literally melting before their eyes, before our eyes, and it's only gonna get worse. So to have a, a polar bear kind of almost like trapped in a cave that's [00:14:00] melting around it, emotionally really spoke to all of us when we put the book together.

Toby: it's an absolutely stunning image. And like you say, there are lots of images of polar bears, but this is so unique and again, this would be something that you want to have on your wall.

Margot: Yeah, absolutely. And, and say some of it obviously comes down to the luck of the shaft of light that, you know, just the polar bear is illuminated, but I just love how the, the icebergs on the left kind of, lead your eyes down towards. Polar bear as well. So also the size of the polar bear. You know, we know they're big animals, so think about the size of this cave as well that it must have been in. So yeah, I was thrilled when this image came to the fore and actually we had a public vote to help us choose some of the images for this year and this one, I think was the top vote from, from the public

Toby: the people, the people's choice. It's interesting what you were saying. I, I was just thinking that when you were saying it. The polar bear, normally a ginormous creature, which usually takes up the whole frame but I think there's a sense of vulnerability in the fact that it is [00:15:00] so small in the frame. So tell me about Bears, what number was that in the series? Was that quite early on 

Margot: You're gonna test me now. I think it was about book six, we did elephants, rhinos. Great apes, cheetahs, lions. It might even be seven wild dogs and then bears. I think so yeah, and it was our first. Foray outside of Africa, which was interesting 'cause every other species until that point had come from Africa, or not only Africa might be elsewhere as well, but was Africa. So, and I knew that our audience was very passionate about African wildlife and safari. So again, it was a bit of a risk for me to move away from Africa so yes, but I felt it was right to kind of broaden, the geography of the wildlife that's in danger that we featured.

Toby: And you mentioned that you're getting all the, the photographers involved, but you also had an incredibly unique way of raising awareness from the books, and that was managing to recruit an extraordinary array of [00:16:00] celebr. To post pictures of themselves with your books. How did that idea come about and how did you get so many celebrities to endorse or promote what you were doing?

Margot: So my PR background, I knew that, um, to have endorsement would, would be helpful to kind of get us on a different level of awareness. And actually it started with Kevin Peterson, who was, part of the English cricket team. But actually. Born in South Africa, originally very passionate about rhino conservation. And on the day I announced that we were going to do a second book, which was remembering Rhinos he announced that he was retiring, but dedicating his. Retirement to Rhino Conservation. So I messaged him and said, you know, look at this. We are both doing the same thing and, maybe we can support each other. And then he said, well, whatever I can do to push a book on rhinos is good with me. And once I had him doing that, that gave me an idea. So I started thinking, who else do I know? And all of us kind of know someone who knows someone. So, I'd actually met someone whose auntie, was godmother to Chris Martin of Coldplay. So I wrote to that person and he wrote back to his auntie and said, yes, auntie, I'll hold it [00:17:00] up. And it was literally just tracking people down. But I think now we've got a bank of kind of support from all these celebrities and, Russell Crowe doing a video for us was a real high point for me when that came out. And that was actually when I was in South Africa at that conference that you asked that question, that all these videos were emerging on that day, which was fantastic. So

Toby: I know, I remember you saying it was a bit of a humble brag and it was like, I have to go because Michelle Pfeiffer's about to announce the book. I was like, you've got Michelle Pfeiffer as well. Well done. There we go. So yeah, it doesn't get that much bigger. Okay, brilliant. We're gonna take a quick break and then when we come back we are going to go delve more into the photographs from the, 10th edition book. We'll be back in a second. 

Toby: Welcome back to part two of the Pangolin Podcast with my guest today, Margot R, for Remembering Wildlife. And we are now on to the third image. Margot, will you tell us a bit about this image and who took it please?

Margot: This image is by, a Italian photographer based in Kenya [00:18:00] called Paolo to, and it is of a leopard in the Masai Mara. But what makes it spectacular is it's balancing on a tree. In the absolute pouring rain. And so you've got a little bit of backlighting of it. The range drops coming through.

it's the image actually outta the entire series that I wish I had taken.

Toby: It really is. Very beautiful. Like you say, it's not your well, it is a leopard sort of inner tree, but like we discussed earlier on, very, very different. I love the long streaks of rain it's remarkable that the cat is so happy out there in the pouring rain and just posing. You spent some time in the Masai Mara, didn't you? You were working there or you a resident Photography. 

Margot: Well, yeah, so I worked as a resident photographer. I used to do, January, June and November at camp for about four years I did that. my favorite was always photographing leopards. So I had months. Going out and looking, for leopards, and I never got this shot, so, um, kicking myself. But, what was really interesting, actually, we have a number over the years of images. [00:19:00] Of different animals. So lions as well, and also cheetahs in the pouring rain. and lots of people don't want to go out and take pictures when it's raining. They think it's difficult, and it is indeed difficult to achieve. 'cause you know, you're dealing with mud and, and your lens getting wet and depending on the type of vehicle you are in. But, actually every time I see a, rainy shot, I'm drawn to it. And it, is a real lesson what beautiful, beautiful images rain can make.

Toby: I mean, that's a very important lesson is the fact that you should never be afraid of. The rainy seasons, the shoulder seasons, because they can always end up producing amazing photographs. And this looks like there was a certain amount of sun coming through yes, it's dark. Yes, it's raining, but there's a shaft of light coming through, which is, it's very Mara,

Margot: yes, no, absolutely. So you can see a little bit of rim lighting, so it's obviously light from behind the leopard coming through. And it's worth noting the shutter speed that Palolo chose here, so he would've slowed it down. I don't know what it is, but I'm wondering if it's. Tag maybe a hundredth or something. So again, in this situation you are kind of balancing 'cause you are [00:20:00] thinking I'll go slow, but I need the cat not to move. I can't move. But hopefully I'll just get the effect of the rain. But it's a kind of brave and experience photographer who's, who's nailed the kind of static shots and then wants to start playing with. With shutter speed, both with rain and also, we don't have any panning shots here, but that's a whole other genre, which is also fun to play with.

Toby: And this is remembering leopards, obviously. Let's talk a bit about the fundraising that the books do. So. I, I, I assume that you find worthy causes conservation initiatives, which are related to the cover species, as it were. How, how do you go about finding the right people to donate money to, and give us an idea of some of the donations that you've made on the ground to help with the works there.

Margot: I've kind of worked on a bit of a principle that actually I was reminded by Ian Redmond OBE, who edited the Apes book with me, he was actually originally a researcher working with Diane Fosse with, mounting gorillas. And he said that one of the things they realized, he went to [00:21:00] see. His first family with Mountain Gorillas with Diane Fosse, and she would accept him because he was with her. Then he went by himself and they wouldn't accept him. And so he came to realize and understand that mountain gorillas understand the concept of a friend, of a friend, and I used that concept. So as I said, because of Jonathan and Angela Scott, particularly as mentors to me when I started out, they were able to say, well, you need to. Speak to Laurie Marker at the Cheetah, conservation Foundation. and you start to know who the good guys are, I'm very careful to just kind of sound out people I trust if I'm moving into a new species and I don't know some of the characters in that, I'll say, you know, who knows them and, and. Do they rate them too? Because there are, like, in any walk of life, you know, organizations that are more effective and less effective. So, people buy our books knowing that whatever money we can raise from them we'll donate. And I don't want to waste their money, but I don't waste my time as well. You know, I work so hard to put these books together so I'm not gonna then give the money to, the wrong people. And then as for [00:22:00] donations that we've given, golly, there's so many over the years. So we've done, elephant collaring, down in Mana Pools, where elephants actually, if they wander out the protected area, might wander into hunting concessions. We have done programs which are teaching children about wild dogs, in, Botswana. Where wild dogs have a very bad reputation with locals, who will want to persecute them. So they actually go around doing schools programs and doing coloring books for them. One that actually we've just, worked on together, Toby very recently is, you know, we've helped fund an ultrasound machines, for a lady who works with rescued Pangolins to actually check their health because otherwise she lives. a 10 hour round trip from the nearest kind of place where she could have actually done an ultrasound on a Pangolin. And a lot of the, the themes that come together are, all about helping people find ways to live alongside wildlife and to tolerate it. So the big threats to wildlife are either. Conflict with [00:23:00] humans are often because of intolerance. Poaching. Um, and so where animals are actually being taken for various reasons to go into the wildlife trade. And then climate change as well is another big threat. And so all of our projects we've, supported are conservationists coming up with ways to try and mitigate one of those problems. So we've supported 80 projects now across 34 countries, so, um. A lot.

Toby: Do you have a number? How much money have you managed to give to 80, 80 projects since remembering wildlife started?

Margot: Yeah, so we are currently, our figure is, I think it's 1,280,000 pounds, which is close to 1.6 million US dollars. And yeah, so you know, the variation normally is between about. 10 to $30,000 for, for an organization and, and sometimes more as well. So yeah, I mean, it's more than I ever dreamed.

Toby: It's extraordinary and what I really like about your organization is. It's not like you're just writing checks to sending it off and wishing people all the best. You [00:24:00] know, most of the places that you then donate money to, for example, we organized for you to go to the Kalahari Wildlife Project and because of the conversations you were having with Michelle, you knew she needed that scanner and then we, we made it happen. It was amazing.

Margot: Yeah, no, absolutely. It motivates me and empowers me to get very specific about how we can support organizations make a difference for them. Because, you know, too often conservation organizations, it feels like you're just dropping money in a bucket. So. Yeah, I, I, it means a lot to me to kind of know where the money is going and I think that's what I supporters enjoy too when they, when they buy our books.

Toby: So there we go. So anyone watching this who's going to buy one of the books? Who has bought the books, rest assured the money goes directly. Directly to the organizations who need it most and for reasons that they need it most, which is very impressive. Okay. Well, that leads us neatly into a segue for our fourth image, which is of course a Pangolin. Margo, tell us about this image please.

Margot: So this image is a Pangolin [00:25:00] walking along the ground, and really showing off the shine on its scales and that slight kind of bronzy look that they have, through a pool of golden light. As it walks past the camera, and it was taken in the Sabi sands. By photographer who's been a great supporter and friend to the project, Tristan Dix from South Africa. And he actually, placed in wildlife photographer of the year, with this image back in 2016, way before I knew him, but I was aware of the image and when I started thinking. Could I do a book that features pangolins either in their entirety or as we have ended up doing with other species as well? One of the challenges was how do we get a portrait picture to go on the front of a Pangolin? And I Started formulating this idea, Tristan didn't even know, and, and I got our, design team and our editorial team to kind of work on it with me and say, could this work as a book? and then I sent it to him and said, look. I'm pretty sure we'd like to do this. How do you feel? And he was, incredibly surprised and moved and happy that we were able to make it work.

Toby: It's a really, really lovely image. In fact, on a personal note, now, you mentioned the Sabi [00:26:00] sands. I saw my first and only Wild Pangolin in the SA Sands on my third ever game drive. And I, I think I remember going, yeah, whatever. I'll probably see lots of those and then never see. I think that's part of the problem is people don't really either, you totally get the magnitude of what you're seeing or you don't, and you spend a life living in regret. This is the way, this is the way it works at Pangolins. 

Margot: I never see them. So wherever I go, someone has always seen a Pangolin the day before I got there, or after I leave, the guides kind of messaged me saying, you should have been here today because we had one in camp. But the fact I went to Kalahari Wildlife Project, um, and was able to spend time with Pangolin there, now had my fill of seeing how amazing they are and, and you know how important it is that we promote their rights through this book.

Toby: And the book itself, I mean, it's quite a tough market, isn't it? Is there still a, a growing market for these books, or are you finding it easier or more difficult every year?

Margot: It varies. I think, if you have a charismatic, [00:27:00] popular species like a lion that everyone knows, or elephants, that's an easier sell. So it's yet to be seen how well I. Sell this particular book this year. But what we do have is a kind of really core supporter base, which is wonderful. People write to me and say, no matter what you put on the cover, we will always buy your books. 'cause we believe in what you are doing. So that's what we need more people who are buying it because they know the mission behind it. And want to learn about these animals and want to protect what we might lose from the world if, if seriously, if organizations aren't given the funding to, to do what they're doing out there and to protect these animals.

Toby: Especially in today's, conservation environment with the reduction in funding from the large organizations that used to give a lot of funding for these sorts of things. But I think people are more inclined to give money to people who can affect immediate change, such as your organization who can get money to people who need it on the ground. And this is a lovely way of donating money. And you also get something in return. So if you are late to the Remembering Wildlife Party, you can [00:28:00] catch up just in time for the 10th episode. That's the message here. We'll leave a link in the description down below, so you can go to their website and you can also, follow Margot on her socials as well as she prepares for the next book. Are you going to, is there, is there an 11th book?

Margot: I couldn't possibly say I would have to kill you.

Toby: Right. That's quite draconian. Okay, well then maybe what? Well, moving swiftly on before my life becomes endangered. We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back in reverse. Margo is gonna share one of her images that she took. So we'll see you in a minute. 

Toby: Welcome back to the final part of the Pangolin podcast with my guest today, Margot Raggett. And we are now flipping it slightly, where previously we've asked our guest to choose an image taken by another photographer. In this instance, Margot is going to share one of the images that she took herself. So Margot, tell us about this image.

Margot: Okay, so this is a leopard and [00:29:00] her sub adult cub, drinking at a waterhole in the central Kalahari. And, they're both looking straight to me, through the lens, both with their very pink tongues out with a lovely reflection and beautiful kind of green grass behind as well.

Toby: So this, as you say, central Kalahari, I know exactly where this photograph was taken, Margo, and I know why you chose it. And it's a little bit of a. You're sort of messing with me, aren't you? So rather than me tell the story, would you like to tell the viewers the story and how this kind of relates to, to me as well?

Margot: Yes, indeed. So we were all in camp together in the central Kalahari. It was incredibly hot green season. you and some of the gang from Pangolin, had chosen to spend the afternoon in a hide. I had chosen. To drive around and see what else was out there. And after an hour or so of driving around in 45 degree heat on my burning head, because the bit I had no cover, I realized that was quite a bad idea and said, let's go and find a water hole and just park up, [00:30:00] in the shade somewhere while I can do some birding because, I genuinely didn't think we'd see anything 'cause it was so hot. So I'd been sitting for half an hour with. The guide, we were parked nose straight facing towards the water hole. I had my camera set up at 800 mils. So, my 400 prime had a two times converter and it was resting in front of me on the bonnet facing the water hole. And suddenly through the very long grass. A leopard appeared, and it was just a single female is the one on the left here. And she very cautiously came through and started drinking while staring straight at us. She'd obviously probably known we'd been there the whole time and had wanted to come in to drink and had assessed us and realized we were no threat to her. And so she could come in and drink. Um. My heart was racing and I was trying to take the picture and, to. I was thinking, my goodness, this is such a rare moment. I need to make sure I've actually switched the camera on here and that, you know, I, haven't messed it up. And so I was stealing precious seconds to check back on what I'd taken and worried that I'd missed a [00:31:00] shot. and then I was so deep in the camera again, which you'll understand, and then suddenly I kind of blinked and thought why am I seeing. Double here. And it's because her sub adult cub had come in next to her. And as you can see, the cubs got green eyes and mum's got more orange. and it was a beautiful moment. So I, I got about a minute of. This kind of frame. And obviously the cup at one point curl its tail beautifully like this. So this was the absolute moment. . To be fair. I did ta have enough. Presence of mind to say to the guy, can you radio the guys in the hide and say, we've got leopards here. And he tried very low, like, hello, hello, um, trying to not disturb them. And then it turned out that you guys had just left your radio in the vehicle. So. You knew nothing about this. And so then we, we wrapped up, they left. I took a deep breath, and then we came back into camp. And yes, I saw guts to, to start with. And Gut said, yeah, how was your afternoon? And I was like, well. How was yours first? And he said, yeah, nothing really came to the hide. How was your afternoon? I said, [00:32:00] well, I was trying to take some pictures of some birds, and then this is what popped up instead. And, and he just shook his head at me and said, I don't think you realize quite what a moment you've captured there. And I said, oh, I, I actually do. Um, I act, I really, really do. But I, I love leopards. I'm always trying to photograph leopards wherever I go. But for me, this is my all time favorite sighting. 'cause you just, you could sit that waterhole for an entire year and this would not happen. . 

Toby: No, I remember that very clearly. I remember sitting in the, in the high look. A few things turned up, it wasn't like this though. So we can't really compare. I do remember though, sitting there and actually being rather hungry. I think I might have missed tea and my stomach kept rumbling and it was echoing slightly in the hide and everyone was like, sh lion, I think lions are coming. And then I had to confess, no, that was me. And I do remember getting back to camp and going that this is so unfair. But anyway, it couldn't have happened to a more worthy person, Margot. It really couldn't.

And I love the way, when you talked about that moment [00:33:00] when you're looking down, you start second guessing yourself and you go, am I really seeing this? And please don't balls this up because this is, this is not gonna happen again.

Margot: Yes. Yes. And it, doesn't happen very often. I can count on, you know, kind of one hand, those, those real moments when you go, oh my God, this is all transpiring in a way that you would write it as a script. And this was definitely one of those.

Toby: What a lovely moment. Well, I was glad that I was nearby to not share it with you, so congratulations. Okay, we've reached the end of the episode, but before we go, we always like to ask our guests. Where would they like their humble dwelling to be? So Margot, imagine your humble dwelling is anywhere in the world where you're gonna sit and photograph in perpetuity. Where would you like us to put your humble dwell?

Margot: Yes, that is very difficult. I mean, it definitely would be Africa, east Africa, possibly somewhere in Kenya. Um, maybe in a private conservancy somewhere in Kenya. So [00:34:00] that, I've got more kind of exclusivity for the area and somewhere that I could potter around and, a nice water hold, which the sunset as well would be good.

Toby: Done, organized right. We'll, we'll choose one of the conservancies. We'll plop your, humble dwelling there with your images, and especially this one. So when I come round for tea and your humble dwelling, you can sit and recall the story of the shot that I missed. Thank you very much, Margot. Margot, I wish you all the best with the launch of the 10th anniversary book. I commend you on such an amazing accomplishment for what you are doing. So very well done. I encourage everybody to go and buy the books and support Margot's work. And, on that note, we shall bid you farewell and, uh, wish you all the best and look forward to seeing you on Safari again. At which point I'm coming on the game drive with you.

Margot: Yes, do do that. Although you might then scare off the Leos with your rumbling tummy, they might not have come in and you were so noisy.

Toby: there is always that risk. Anyway, we shall have to see, won't we? Thank you very much, Margot, for joining me.

Margot: Thanks for doing this. Thanks. Bye. 

Toby: [00:35:00] Thank you for listening to episode nine of the Pangolin podcast. We hope you have enjoyed it. As always, we'd love to hear your comments and feedback, so please do leave them down below. And if you don't want to miss the next episode or any of our other wildlife photography videos, make sure you subscribe to the channel and give us a like at the same time.

Thank you. Finally, don't forget to sign up to the Pangolin Photo Safari's Friday focus newsletter. You can do that by heading over to pangolin photo.com, or you can scan the QR code on your screen. Now I very much look forward to seeing you on a Pangolin photo safari soon, and all that is left for me to say is that the Pangolin podcast was hosted by me, Toby Jermyn, and produced and edited by Bella Falk.

Thank you.